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Disabling ghost training - the blog edition

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.14 15:15:00 - [1] I am sorry to hear that you cancel a good feature in the game. It was intended, as someone states from your own player guide. If it weren't for that you disabled your secure-network, I would have already cancelled 3 accounts. Too bad I can't cancel my FanFest trip too. But I am sure there are a lot of good shops in Reykjavik to spend the time in on a weekend. If you disable one feature while accounts are inactive, I suggest you disable ALL features, like market orders, reserach agents, contracts, pos fuel-consumption, etc. Not just a 5 year old feature 'that was unintended from the start', but still managed to get written into the player guide! To the players: Have fun playing 23/7, this may be an excuse for me to get rid of this addiction
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.14 15:25:00 - [2] Originally by: WeightedCompanionCube How many people here are actually going to terminate their character in protest rather then just cancel, an action that is easily reversible ? If I cancel one of my 3 accounts for 3 months, it will cost CCP more than if I ghost-train for a whole year. the point is, if you ghost-train, you will be getting back to the game with a better character, and possibly being able to do what you wanted to do from the beginning.
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.14 15:41:00 - [3] Introduce multiple account discount for your loyal customers! 'ghost-training' will be reduced by 50% since people can actually afford to have multiple aco****s running!
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.14 15:43:00 - [4] I guess the next thing they will introduce is a deletion of accounts that are not active for more than a month! A sure way to lose customers, which seems to be their plan anyway. They want to ruin their economy? It would look bad if CCP was the only company in Iceland not close to financial ruin!
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:43:00 - [5] 3454 flame posts within 24 hours... that must be some kind of record! And that's only from 16.02 yesterday to 16.02 today! Introduce multiple account discounts to reduce the amount of 'ghost-training' 1st account $14.95 per month 2nd account $14.00 per month 3rd account $13.00 per month 4th account $12.50 per month each account after the 4th account $12.00 per month. Not a huge discount, but one worth it. Same discounts for longer periods, such as 3 months, 6 months and 1 year subscription.
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:45:00 - [6] Originally by: Crewman Jenkins Fair is fair..they say what they offer, and you can take it or leave it. Noone is forcing you to stay. Thats fair. It's like holding candy in front of a kid, you try to explain to the kid it can't have it! I am just like that kid... [b]IT IS NOT FAIR! I WANT MY CANDY!
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.14 22:51:00 - [7] Odd to see that not a single reply from CCP has made it to the thread... I'll keep it short: Don't remove what you cal ghost-training! It's a good thingto get players back to active mode! DON'T CHANGE TRAINING!
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.16 08:57:00 - [8] I can't see what the difference is between disabling 'ghost-training' and having market orders up while the account is inactive? Or not halting the accumulation or Research Points from agents when inactive! If CCP wants to make inactive accounts unusable, take a full step, not a half-hearted attempt! No training, no market orders, no contracts, no research points. It shouldn't be harder to implement than halting training. Market orders take longer to expire than even the very longest skills to train!
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.16 08:59:00 - [9] Originally by: Truthbringer I normally take breaks from the game and the fact that my characters are still training is one of the major factors that brings me back. Now that this will no longer be the case, expect my next sabbatical to be permanent. This was a VERY poor marketing decision. You should expect to see your active accounts trickle off in the next few months. This, signed.
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.16 09:49:00 - [10] Originally by: Jocho Edited by: Jocho on 14/10/2008 23:11:45 Useful Link 1 Useful Link 2 Notice how he says "whipped" - clearly a bug if he's being done for saying it's going to be 'fixed'... Useful link 4 Some useful links, to show this is anything but a bug. Thank you for providing the first picture-link, it has been changed to reflect a grim future. Without a notice, of course. The edited player-guide

Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.16 19:11:00 - [11] Originally by: CCP Fallout Heya guys, There appears to be some sort of technical issue with the original thread. It's still reachable if you visit this link: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=896318&page=1 I will have our tech people look into why it's not showing up anymore on the main page as it should be. Please post here if you are having issues accessing the thread. Please be sure to keep your comments regarding the blog and the upcoming ghost training changes in the above thread. Not working very hard, are the tech guys, eh? ... or is the reason that you don't want that many complaints and the easiest way is to make the access a little bit harder?
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.16 20:23:00 - [12] 5.500+ posts and not a single post from CCP or their employees. Do they even read it, or did they cave in immediately after the first flame? I fear that this thread is off-limits for all CCP-employees! Could we at least get a post from CCP to confirm they still follow the 'suggestions' on this thread, since all other threads are locked on other forums.
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.16 20:58:00 - [13] Edited by: Gorek Loc on 16/10/2008 20:59:17 I stand corrected, there was a reply on page 93. I can't believe I missed that! Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans The bug that became a feature On Monday, we released news that we are disabling äGhost Trainingô, the ability to train characters on inactive accounts. This resulted in strong reactions from the community as many people were routinely making use of it. We explained the matter in more detail and pointed out that this had been a bug in the original game code. Those of us who were involved in the process of making the decision and communicating it to the community did not realize this bug had been so accepted as a feature that it was listed as such in our own documentation on our own website. How can we not know whatæs in our own documentation? Well, to be frank, it was a case of insufficient communication on our part between various teams û a regrettable mistake and hard lesson to learn at the expense of the trust youæve placed in us. Thereæs no way to spin it and we wonæt add insult to injury by trying to do so. It was a mistake on our part and for that we sincerely and humbly apologize. Many would hope that in light of this we will decide not to cancel ghost training and keep it active as an option but weære cannot to do that. EVE is already one-of-a-kind in allowing players to progress their characters through offline skill training. We stand by our policy that if you want your character to progress in EVE, you should pay the subscription fee. The fact that so many people have been able to do so for several years was our own oversight. We know this change, and our misstep in telling you about it, has created some discontent and we hope that over time we can prove our committment to make EVE better than ever for you will be evident as you enjoy the fruits of our labor. Torfi Thanks for clearing that... I hope you will reconsider after the board takes a closer look at the economics-review of the year. To me, and many others, this feature has been a hook to returning to Eve after time away. I have been away from Eve in periods of 1 year, 4+months, 2+months. But when I came back, I was happy to continue playing as I now could do more stuff than before the game madde me bored. Sometimes a new lvl 5 skill, like Cruise Missile V or Advanced Spaceship Commmand V, or other skills that unlock ships. From me, two accounts are down already I am not sure how long I will continue this account, maybe a month more, maybe I won't renew it. Finally, this could also be a calling to try out some new games. I heard Spore should be a great game! Or another space simulator? Gotta keep looking
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:15:00 - [14] Edited by: Gorek Loc on 17/10/2008 11:15:23 Some people tend to discontinue their accounts in favor of ghost training. This could be because it takes too long to train for certain modules or ships. For a new player to fly a Carrier, it takes about 140 days, just to get the skills to handle the big ship. To fly it decently, it takes over 240 days! Now i know this is an extreme example, but people shouldnt be forced to pay $150 to fly a Carrier, in addition to the time spent online scraping isk together for the ship, skillbooks, and capital modules. A Black Ops takes 120 days to take out of station, and 270 days ot handle properly. To fit a T1 cruiser with T2 modules takes 60 days to train for! A Covert Ops with T2 equipment takes about 40 to 60 days to train for.
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:22:00 - [15] Originally by: Lilith Order Alternative, you are seeing financial trouble and active sub counts are a bald face lie. Alternative 2, you are just plain greedy. Being greedy has nothing to do with it. It is a matter of trying to get your real-world money spent in a hobby you enjoy. Sometimes I spend a little extra on my hooby, like a luxury item, sometimes, I need to save a little bit to get food on the table and gas on my car. It is not like people that use ghost training exploit the enire system by ONLY training on inactive accounts. We also activate accounts and play on them. This does indeed mean a bit of switching back and forth, though. CCP will not be getting three full account payments from me all the time, but usually two payments and every so often I activate a third account, let one of the others run out, and continue playing. This also means I have three accounts running simultaneously every now and then... extra money for CCP. After the change, I might activate the other accounts once more, only to either sell the characters or move them onto my main account. A one-time payment for CCCP. Not something to build a company on.
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.17 16:16:00 - [16] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 17/10/2008 12:21:24 EVE: Month 1: Whiner pays for play time and skill training. Month 2: Whiner demands free skill training because he paid last month. Restaurant: Month 1: Whiner pays for meal and drinks. Month 2: Whiner demands free drinks because he paid last month. Both are companies selling their products. Why is one required to give away theirs for free? This corresponds to the 'free drinks' machine has a 'broken' sign on it... not advertised outside.
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.18 10:21:00 - [17] A few links to forums and artcles, discusses this event too. This was done with a quick search on Google: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/207413 http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156195 http://www.massively.com/2008/10/13/ccp-games-kills-ghost-training-on-inactive-eve-accounts/ http://massiveblips.dailyradar.com/story/why_ghost_training_was_disabled/ http://link.removed These are only a few of the links I found. This proves that ghost training was intended, encouraged and an attractive feature, from a customers point of view.
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.18 10:35:00 - [18] Originally by: Xeronn no response eh? CCP ghosttrained Ignore VIII all this years? haha... they are exploiting the feature themselves... this thread has been training since the bug was unveiled to the world! But seriously, how about making a a new thread with this discussion, without the hidden part?
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.18 15:21:00 - [19] Originally by: Parasite S maybe cause the people who care are people who stick with eve and that for a long time and dont want to see their best mmorpg changing to the worst they ever had... Eve is not family... This is a game that we pay for. If we don't like how it changes, we can leave. However, most of us do like the game, so we speak up to changes we don't like. My personal guess is that after the dust settles, CCCP has lost some of it's customers, and a bit of it's glow as a one-of-a-kind online game.
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.18 15:59:00 - [20] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Originally by: Fwuffy Wabbit Originally by: Tivookz I wonder what Wrangler changed his mind about? Linkage Tiv I do believe he was trying to make the thread visible again Yup, but this time it worked. Good job unhiding the thread... now are you going to do anything to try to keep your customers ? Introduce some sort of discount for multiple account customers, and ghost training won't be an issue.

Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.21 17:21:00 - [21] Quoted from the Dev Blog: Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans" We can look at this from a variety of angles, but it all comes down to: 1. There was a way to progress a character in EVE without an active subscription 2. CCP noticed a surge in the trend and decided to fix the leak 3. Players now have to pay a subscription for characters to have them progress We truly hope that the community will understand our actions and continue to enjoy playing EVE as much as we enjoy making it. On my behalf, I ran 3 accounts. I have been taking advantage of your generous 'power of 2' offers. However, after 6 months, I felt that the expences were too much for me to handle for playing a game. I couldn't find any special offers for good customers. Like a discount for multiple accounts. I got the 14 days free playtime with one of my accounts for the Factional Warfare, which made me activate that account again. Now with mining Barge V training, ready for an exhumer. I played the 14 days and prolonged it to 1 more month, deactivating my pvp-account (Until I want to pvp again). I don't play so much as to have the isk to pay for my playtime. I don't have 500m to spare for each account for the extra 60 days playtime. Maybe with cheaper, or shorter timecards, it may be possible. Finally I got to ask a few questions: 1. Did the management take any time to reflect on, how the playerbase might have seen this disabling of a feature? 2. You say the issue was growing out of your hands, so the databases couldn't keep up. How many of those accounts have been using the 'power of 2' offers? 3. Pay to play, fair enough, but since the demise of the shorter and cheaper gametime cards, it is getting harder to pay to play. 4. It is possible to create a discount for a player with multiple accounts? After all, CCP has encouraged players to have multiple accounts with several 'power of 2' offers. What I am thinking is, it is better to ge e.g. $12 for the second or fifth account than nothing?
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.23 18:46:00 - [22] Edited by: Gorek Loc on 23/10/2008 18:47:01 There is another response on page 93: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=replyquote&threadID=896318&line=2773 But then again, it's t0rfi... I don't think he will be long at CCP, the way he has grown a bad habit of sticking his shoes in his mouth while speaking! Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans The bug that became a feature On Monday, we released news that we are disabling äGhost Trainingô, the ability to train characters on inactive accounts. This resulted in strong reactions from the community as many people were routinely making use of it. We explained the matter in more detail and pointed out that this had been a bug in the original game code. Those of us who were involved in the process of making the decision and communicating it to the community did not realize this bug had been so accepted as a feature that it was listed as such in our own documentation on our own website. How can we not know whatæs in our own documentation? Well, to be frank, it was a case of insufficient communication on our part between various teams û a regrettable mistake and hard lesson to learn at the expense of the trust youæve placed in us. Thereæs no way to spin it and we wonæt add insult to injury by trying to do so. It was a mistake on our part and for that we sincerely and humbly apologize. Many would hope that in light of this we will decide not to cancel ghost training and keep it active as an option but weære cannot to do that. EVE is already one-of-a-kind in allowing players to progress their characters through offline skill training. We stand by our policy that if you want your character to progress in EVE, you should pay the subscription fee. The fact that so many people have been able to do so for several years was our own oversight. We know this change, and our misstep in telling you about it, has created some discontent and we hope that over time we can prove our committment to make EVE better than ever for you will be evident as you enjoy the fruits of our labor. Torfi
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.24 22:54:00 - [23] This must be record-breaking days for CCCP... they have posted at least 8 blogs, interviews and more within the last 3 days. I wonder if they are trying to move focus from a bad thing to something else... as long as it's not the bad thing everybody is talking about. Today: Finding the Funny - Massively Interviews Winterblink EVE Evolved Presents an Introduction to PvP Eve Forum Revamp Yesterday: Live Dev Blog, Introducing CCP t0rfifrans - Thursday 23rd October <- didn't this one never happen anyway? The day before yesterday: Torfi Talks Ghost Training with MMORPG.com EVE Online: Empyrean Age 1.1.2 Patch Deployment - Mac additions. ...and the day before that: Jumpplanner Celebrates Three Years with Giveaway I think there was one more post on the 20th, but I can't find it again
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.10.27 23:48:00 - [24] Unstickying the most controversial decision in CCP history... This matter won't go away by itself. CCP better deal with the problem... read the suggestions in this thread, there are several good solutions to not losing most of yout multiple account users... Because you listen to 'the quality of the feedback, not the quantity.' It is better to listen to your customers now, than your financial advisors at the end of the year. The problem with the training on inactive accounts is self-created. Offering the users good discounts on multiple accounts, then just let it roll from there. There has been no follow-up on the multiple account users, only more 'power of 2' offers so that existing users can get even deeper in s*** with even more accounts. I am certain that most users will greet a discount on multiple accounts with a warm welcome.
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2008.11.03 23:47:00 - [25] Originally by: Darkeen Can I have your stuff? Originally by: Darkeen Can I have your stuff? Originally by: Darkeen Can I have your stuff? Having fun trolling with your alt on your secondary account? The very least you can do is post with your main, since you are begging for free stuff... But then again, you are trying to use the same methods as CCCP, trying to change subject by posting a lot of crap...
Gorek Loc Etherware Heavy Engineering	Posted - 2009.01.01 10:52:00 - [26] happy new year all... Now if only we got a gift from CCCP for this new year... such as training with inactive accounts, like the intention was from the initial release. An offer that would make players get back to the game after a long time away.

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